Find Your Side Hustle
Find Your Side Hustle
#76 - Building in public on Twitter, personal branding, and stacking on a Podcast with Chris Hutchings

In this episode of “Find Your Side Hustle”, it’s my pleasure to welcome back onto the podcast Chris Hutchings from

I first chatted with Chris in June 2021. You can check out that episode here:

Since our first chat, Chris has been using the “Build In Public” community on Twitter to help grow his business as well as develop his personal brand. We discuss how he has found it and what he would do differently if he had his time over again.

We also discuss the next steps for Chris to build his brand, by starting a podcast.



Phil: [00:00:00] It’s my pleasure to welcome back Chris. back On to find your side hustle. So thanks for coming back on Chris.

Chris: No, mate. It’s my pleasure. Oh yeah.

Phil: One of the reasons I got your back column and one of the things we’re chatting about on the first episode. Find your side hustle. So when you come on, we just kind of touched on personal branding and, and things like that.

So that’s one of the reasons or it’s to bring you back on because you’ve started doing a lot more things like that for yourself and getting out of your comfort zone. So before we get into that, do you want to just give people a refresher of what you do and what your businesses?

Chris: Yeah, sure. Um, so my main business is a survey company called.

And the elevator pitch, if you like, of why it’s different to every other survey company in the world is we only do surveys that are sub 30 seconds. And the reason we do that is twofold one [00:01:00] because I believe, and we’ve got data to prove that you can get a very good story. We’ve just 30 seconds of someone’s time.

But more importantly, I think that it’s key that. You know we all get a hundred bloody survey requests in our inbox every day. And, and I said this time and time again, it sounds like it’s one of the things we talk about your own business. Like I’ve repeated this time and time again, but it’s boring, right?

None of us have 20 minutes to fill out a survey about every question about some pair of trainers we bought. Like, so I’m trying to, I’m trying the long and short of it is I’m trying to make the survey experience or the other. A little bit more interesting for the people taking it. Um, you know, whether that’s through just making it be shorter, whether it’s making it engaging, you know, it can be both, but that’s the kind of the upshot of.

Oh, yeah. I think

Phil: he’s, you make a great point though. Cause I struggled with it from your own business in terms of how do I get feedback from users, even people [00:02:00] that are using the products. And it’s such a, it’s such a tough ask. And like you say, I’ve gone down the old route of under the one questions about, do you like this color and all that lot.

So yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s a real critical

Chris: thing. It is. And I think the key thing about that. It’s an investment, right? Whether that’s time or whether that’s money, you’re investing in trying to get these answers. So your counter-intuitively you feel like, oh, I want to get as much bang for my buck as I can.

And what invariably ends up happening is the other, the opposite happens is people can’t be public. It takes too long. People don’t always give you genuine answers because they’re just rushing. And actually, nine times out of 10, what you want as, whether it’s an entrepreneur or whether it’s a marketer or whatever reason you’re doing this survey, you, you often want just one piece of information and all that, or not that you want one piece of it.

There’s one key piece of [00:03:00] information that would really like step change your decision on what you might do, right? Whether that’s through a product or from a marketing campaign or whatever. And that’s my theory. And actually, you know, I’ve got stuff to back that up. So for instance, if you were doing something on your businesses, you’d be much better off asking a person one or two questions over like 10 weeks.

What do you mean? Like one or two a week for 10 weeks, then you would be asking them 20 questions in one. Ah, interesting. Interesting. Because people be like, oh, you know, it just feels dropped into my inbox. I know he’s not after all my time. And once they’ve done it once, then, you know, you can go back to the guys.

I really appreciate you doing this. And he charge you spend me another 20 seconds. Like, yeah. It’s no big deal. Um, That’s interesting. Yeah, I’ll definitely, I’ll

Phil: definitely be picking your brains about that in the future. [00:04:00] Yeah. So we’ve kind of touched on it, but didn’t go too deep into it. Last, the last episode about personal Brandon and I, we were kind of trying to navigate it and, and, and work it out for ourselves.

And there was one thing that you’d started doing, and you’ve been very open with online, LinkedIn and Twitter. Um, I think in kind of like a bit of a trend, especially on Twitter called building public or building in public. So can you give kind of like a high-level overview of what building public is and what you sort of thought about it before you started delving into it?

Chris: Um, okay. So I guess, I guess building public is like somewhere in between personal branding for people I’m fully branding. Brandon stuff for like, you know, established businesses. And in the essence, what it is is, is giving people a behind the scenes look of what you’re doing on a day-to-day basis, why you’re [00:05:00] doing it, what you’re doing it, how you’re doing it.

And that might be for a number of reasons. It might be too

people buy from people and people are interested in people. And I think that.

And also people want to feel like part of the community. And as you well know, right, you started your own business. You know that it’s not all, uh, despite whatever you want to tell you, it’s not all roses and sunshine. It’s, it’s tough times. And I think, I think that knowing that other people are going through the same thing you are going through and you’re.

Loser. You’re not alone. You’re not like making all these mistakes and you know, you stop questioning yourself and feeling naive. I think sometimes it feels good to see a tweet, whether it’s from me or you or someone else made a total cock-up on this. [00:06:00] Or I spent this on there. So it actually a total waste of money.

Um, I, and that’s the theory. Right? And plus also from, from a, from a customer point. Yeah. I think it’s important for them to, to that helps build a bond. And I think, I think, I think that they can get an understanding of what you are, who you are, what you’re about, what your business is about. Um, uh, and, and also it’s a marketing channel.

It’s, you know, a lot of us smaller entrepreneurs, solo, preneurs, whatever you want to call it. You know, most of the time we’ve, we’re, we’re fighting for spice. We have established businesses. So for instance, one of my kind of indirect competitors is you gov you know, I mean, loosely speaking, right there, survey company, they do polls marketing and stuff like that.

They do what I do yet. They are. [00:07:00] Multi-billion pound, um, business they’re well-known in, you know, everyone’s heard of them. Everyone’s had probably had some sort of touch point experience with them at some point in the past. So, uh, you know, how, how can I compete against those? I haven’t got the marketing budget to compete, like punch a punch on, on TV or whatever.

So it’s another way of getting that brand out there. Yeah, that’s amazing.

Phil: I think. And yeah, I’ve not looked at it as a marketing channel, but I completely agree with the community side of it as well, because I think especially on Twitter start, I followed you on Twitter and then I saw you being more and more active in the community and I’ve kind of dipped my toe in the water.

And from that, I’ve got connections with people who are probably three years down the road from where I am, but they’re right to, like you’re saying they’re being honest and open and saying, well, I finally hit this number, but it literally taught me to. Um, [00:08:00] I can’t remember what they’d got gentlemen, so, but it took him three years to get to like a hundred pound or a thousand pounds a month income.

Right. And then not time at all to get to like 10,000. And he said, yeah, that’s the grit. It’s a great number, but you’re not seeing the actual two, three years worth of this flat line and exactly from the building public. So our community, you get in that. And like you say, you feel part of it and it does give you a bit of a.

So I saw this in a bit of sort of comfort to go, right. That’s what I’m going through and other people who’ve gone through it, so it’s fine just to cut it. So yeah, it’s

Chris: a good community. It is. But you raise a very, very good point there that

I intuitively you think it would be easy, right? You think, you know, all I have to do is share. All I have to do is write, you know, tweet. Oh, I did this. I did that. I haven’t got a huge amount of followers on Twitter and the algorithm, or Twitter’s getting more complicated, like [00:09:00] engagement rates are a tank in everywhere.

And I mean, I’m sure you’ve seen it right when you tweet, I mean, how many likes you’re getting? It’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s silly, but the point is. I’m trying to make it. It’s a hard channel, right? You think it’d be easy and you think, oh, you know, Gary V talks about all the time. It’s like, oh, you know, do this, you pump out the content, but doing it properly is a, is a, is a job in itself.

Right. And then, and if you’ve got a site, if you use your business as a side hustle, or your business is just your main business, but you know, it’s, it’s making that time to do it. But you raise a good point about the timeline. See, I’ve got several clients off the back of, I would say Twitter, not necessarily building in public.

I don’t know if it’s, it’s a bit of a gray area in between, but, um, I am definitely not one of the best of built in public. There there’s many are better out than me. Uh, [00:10:00] and th the fundamental reasons for that is I am, I am not an over-sharer in general. Like, I. Um, be introverted, I guess, or I’ve never really been that one for sure.

It doesn’t come naturally to me, you know? And, and whether that’s because I’m a little bit older and this, you know, the social media, the waivers has come when I’ve been older. I don’t know. Um, I’m trying, but, but the important takeaway is it’s not always easy. It’s. You think it’d be easy. It’s like, oh, you know, you’re just on Twitter all day.

And you talk about how this bit of code you put in what didn’t work or this Facebook ad, you put up didn’t work and you know, and then you chat to someone else who’s doing it. And, but it is hard. It is because you need to, um, need to keep at it. But what why I was trying to get at it, the point you made about the one to three years, it’s like anything, right?

It’s I, and I’m [00:11:00] guilty of this. Anyone I’ll put out a couple of tweets for a couple of weeks and I’d be like, oh no. Why am I not getting like customers knocking down my door? Or why my tweets not going viral or all this? And it’s like, oh, I can’t be bothered. You know, we live in, we live in a world of no one has that delayed gratification gene anymore.

And I, like I said, I’m totally guilty. And I hold my hands up. Like it’s not, I’m not sitting there being all holy ever. Now. It’s not that at all. It’s tough, man. It is. It

Phil: really is. It really is. It’s uh, everyone says consistency is key. And even a lot of people not just like say Gary V quite a lot of people, some, some of the big thought leaders marketing.

So like Seth Gordon, who I respect for a lot and another gentleman, Russell Brunson, they’re just like create content every day. And within 12 months you’ll have a different business in life. And I was like, yeah, that’s all well and good.[00:12:00]

Chris: we’re living in a constant stream of content, right? I, yeah, I I’ve, I’ve recently sort of cuddled who I follow on Twitter and Instagram and YouTube, wherever else, like, and I’m trying to be really conscious of who I follow because I want to get good content. And even then it’s. You know, you could sit there for an hour.

You got a little scroll on Instagram, have a little scroll on YouTube. Uh, I mean, Tik TOK don’t even get me started on that. I find like a, like a, like a black hole of time. Um, so it’s, it’s not just about creating content, right? We could all sit there and, and write a list of tweets that we could schedule out.

It’s it’s creating that stuff is actually interesting. And again, I will hold my hands up and say that I know. A lot of the stuff I put out is not necessarily adding huge amounts of value. I try, [00:13:00] but at the same time, it’s, you know, you’re trying to sort of today, it’s tough. It’s a tough gig. It sounds easy.

Um, it’s not always the case.

Phil: Yeah. Okay. I feel your pain, but same that then. So you’re saying it’s not easy. How did you sort of get started with that? And have you put, um, a framework or a system to sort of be, like you said, try and counteract the inconsistency that may call,

Chris: um,

Uh, so two questions. So how I got started with it was I saw other people doing online. Okay. And when I first sort of, I mean, I’ve, I’ve kind of followed the whole Gary V thing for a long, long time about, you know, create don’t consume and the rest of it. I never really put two and two together about that with them.

What you’re saying is building public. It was never really labeled as building public. Yeah. [00:14:00] Um, and then I started seeing it a little bit more on Twitter and, uh, I read key person of influence by Daniel Priestley saying quite book. Um, and, and then I, I connected with a garden it’s physical, Kevin. Yeah, I think I’ve seen you, if you do, you know, you follow him, but he does a lot of courses around building in public.

And I think it was about as a time, about a year ago, where everyone was kind of jumping on this bandwagon of launching a course about building in public and pro process docs and, and the rest of it. Um, so that was the first question that was kind of how I sort of started learning about it. And it’s. You know, it’s been called lots of different things, but you know, one month personal branding building Publix for me, it’s all kind of the same thing.

Second part of your question about, um, [00:15:00] do I have a process short answer? An honest answer is no, I don’t. Should I have a process? Yes, I should. What I find is, um,

I kind of find it hard because come back to that point. Anyway, your, your talk about Gary V again, but he’s always saying creative. Uh, sorry, document don’t create. Yeah. Okay. And it’s very true whether you love him or hate him is kind of neither here nor there. The point of the matter is, is you’re trying to come up with ideas, whether it’s for a tweet or a YouTube video or a Tik talk or Instagram reel every day, all day, every day, then that is hard, hard work.

Uh, and coming back to the point of trying to run a business. So someone who does it very well actually is a guy. Um, I mean, he’s a bit [00:16:00] contentious, but there’s a guy called James Smith. Who’s a personal trainer and he creates a lot of good content every day. And yeah, it’s quite interesting. But what I was going to say is that I find it when, um,

if I go down that route say right, I’m going to document everything is great, except what I’m doing on a day-to-day basis. It’s actually not that interesting, you know, it’s very formulaic. It’s very process driven. Um, could I be doing more of the day-to-day business? Yes, probably. Um, I, there’s lots of sort of advertising and marketing and growth stuff I want to implement and I will implement over the next few.

But most of what I do on a day-to-day basis is the same as I did yesterday. And the same as it did the day before. Right. I I’m, I’m, I’m putting out, I’ve got a, um, someone working with me at the moment who unfortunately, will be leaving [00:17:00] next week if we can talk about in a minute, but basically we’re putting out a daily poll every day, you know, then we’re putting out, maybe do a bit of client work or whatever.

Realistically, it doesn’t change from one day to the next, very rarely. So I find it. So from that thing, I found it hard to combined with me, not really being an oversharer and not being a natural and social. I found it hard to come up with something to say that adds value every. And I’m sure you’ve been there.

Right? I seen you, you put out a lot of great content on LinkedIn and wherever, and I know that if you might’ve written a three or four paragraph post on LinkedIn, but I know that’s taking you a considerable amount of time. I know you did not just sat down in your quick five minute lunch break and gone.

Sometimes you might write sometimes, you know, the, the inspiration MedTech,

Phil: your bot. It’s not, [00:18:00] it’s not every day. No, you’re right

Chris: with that. Um, so, so no I don’t, but where that has led me in my career path and stuff I’m thinking about at the moment is kind of moving away a little bit from the building public side of things.

And focusing more on the personal brand side of things and don’t get me wrong. There’s a crossover. Most definitely. And I think that, you know, some days that personal brand content might be something, uh, like building in public related. I don’t think that they’re mutually exclusive, but I think that, um, yeah, I’m currently exploring other stuff.

To, to drive, um, yeah. To drive that personal pride thing. Yeah. I know that. That’s about, [00:19:00] you know, that’s not easy either.

Phil: No, it’s not. I completely agree. It’s interesting that you said that because you were in a, there’s so many things, so it likes to, I want to say, so Gary V he says that and you’re spot on.

So I feel like for me, with the built in public, I took your inspiration. I was trying to do it, and I have to get a feature out for elementary analytics. And that was my sole focus was just get this feature out. So it was like tweeting about it, but because it was a piece of soft. They took like 10 days of my time to get it right and get it all built.

And you’re going down this rabbit hole in my pulling the string as it is this. So it’s, I can’t just tweet every day still working on that, still working on that, or maybe I could, and I don’t, I don’t know whether that resonates with people. So yeah, I completely

Chris: agree. I’ll tell you where it might resonate.

And actually, one of the things I have found with building public, and this is not a criticism as well, because I do love the movement. [00:20:00] It seems to work or seems to be a lot better adopted by the tech community. I completely agree. So actually, in your example, you might find that, um, again, I’m not tech focused at all, so, you know, w I dunno, what kind of words, and I have no idea what you’re talking about, but someone might, you might say, I, you know, I’ve got a problem with this, uh, Ruby on rails thing that does this, this, this, and you actually, you might find the engagement’s better because someone go, oh, well, why don’t you try this?

And actually that the tech community, that’s what I see. I see a lot of the building public stuff is, is phenomenal because people are very open about sharing their, um, knowledge and wisdom and whatever. Whereas for me, I think because mine is not a tech business essentially. Right. It’s online, but that’s about as far as it goes, I have a [00:21:00] WordPress site, which I sort of hacked together myself.

Um, it’s a little bit different, the whole build. So I’m not actually building something in that, uh, in that kind of sense. I’m building a business, but a lot of the building public stuff, a lot of them are satisfied with. And it’s a very long-winded way of me saying that what you, your point about actually taking 10 days to do something, the different steps you do each day, don’t get me wrong.

The board is held to me because I’ve got no idea what you’re talking about, but actually if your in that world, and that’s what you’re doing, then actually it might be no. That’d be great.

Phil: Thank you just to boring, but you make a great point though that maybe I should have done it because the community that I would have been at jumped on it and been like, even, like you said, the, just support if like I’ll just keep going, keep going, getting there.

Yeah. Yeah. It would have been, [00:22:00] would have been at least its engagement. And like you say, it’s getting, getting the word out there. So that, that makes a great point. And I think, yeah, the thing is we gave her a V and I’m the same with you. He says document don’t create, but he’s got, I don’t want to say an interest in life.

It sounds like we’ve not,

Chris: but it is it’s, it’s got interest in life and he’s got a guy follows him around.

Phil: Exactly. I was just going to say it. Yeah. I was just going to say that so

Chris: sorry to go on. No, it’s you’re a hundred percent, right? I didn’t mean to interrupt. Sorry. I like he has got an interest in life.

He’s kind of a meeting to meet and he’s. Um, I guess his counter to that and, you know, I thought it sounded like a fan boy, I guess his counter that he didn’t always have that. Right. Yeah. That’s true. Very true. But then my counter to that counter would be, well, it was a different time that it wasn’t quite so much content float around.

I don’t know. You could pick holes in it all day long. And so yeah, Gary V is, [00:23:00] is a bit more mine, right? He’s a bit, some people love him. Some people hate him, but. For me, I don’t mind him. I think it’s, he’s like anyone else you sort of, you know, in this day and age, the personal brand and way everyone’s sharing their wisdom and everyone’s like got opinion and everything.

And I think ultimately it’s down to you as a person to take what you want from it. Yeah. And that could be even someone you don’t like, there’s still things in there that, um, definitely be of benefit to you and your career and your personal life and the rest of it. So, yeah, I don’t mind him and I think.

There’s definitely learnings to get from him, but the reason why I’m really all right. Cool. Yeah. Great tip. Great tip. So

Phil: I’m not sure how long you’ve been doing the soul building public personal branding stuff for it now, but that’s, what’s the one thing that, um, if you repeated the time over again, that you’d probably do differently.

Is there something that you’ve learned now in the process that you do differently? [00:24:00] People could probably learn from, from me experience,

Chris: um, aside from having a time machine or starting it earlier. Nice, interesting. Interesting. I think, I mean, do you know what I think it’s the golden rule of marketing in general is you and I, and everyone else could bang out content all day every day.

And I think. And again, man, I’m guilty of this. I, I, I do the same thing and it’s, it’s, it’s sometimes it’s funny having these conversations because it makes you realize things about yourself that you don’t always consider. And I think a lot of is engagement. So the best people, I see building audiences on social media and the rest of it are people who are engaging with other things.

So for instance, I set out a few alerts on a few, [00:25:00] for lack of a better term influencers on Twitter, just so that I can, if I feel like I can add value and I’m not doing it just the, of sacred, but if I feel like in a very, I can reply to tweets to get myself in front of other people. And there’s one guy. So in doing it recently and I started getting alert every time he tweets.

Oh, right. I see. And he is proficient, man. He like, he, he replies to so many people. Right. And I guess it’s a bit of a catch 22 and you know, he has a lot of people to reply to, but he is engaging. And I think that is a key thing. I think I, one of the things that I would do more if. It’s not even if I did it again, I think I should be doing more of point blank is engaging with more people.

And by that, I mean, trying to add value and I see you do actually, you do it very [00:26:00] well. I see you do a lot and it’s a good thing. And I think I would do it more and more. Um, the, the, the downside of the whole thing is just not seeing the returns as quick as maybe you wonder was maybe as you think. And it’s very painful.

Sometimes putting stuff out there day after day after, day after day, and just, you know, getting very little engagement back. So yeah, nothing you

Phil: think you make a good point though? Um, I’m trying to be right. You’ve got to bring value. If you’re going to comment, don’t just go. Like it, whatever, if something makes you laugh fine.

But like some of those people that just, um, commenting for the comments commenting, just to try to get a face on someone else’s post, I think it doesn’t. Yeah. It doesn’t work. Yeah. So, so you’ve been doing a lot more on sweater and a lot more on, about, on LinkedIn as well. So what’s your sort of plan moving forward.

Have you got anything else you want to start doing in terms of new [00:27:00] products, more personal brand then? So what, what’s the sort of future looking now? You saw him put this good soft

Chris: foundation. So weirdly the future, um, is I want to do more content and I’ve got a couple of ideas in my mind. And it’s more going back to talking about personal brand and building public.

It’s more on this personal brand inside. And my, my theory is, is twofold. Actually one is that I can get my name out there doing different things and always be associated back to being, oh, you know, that’s Chrissy, the survey guy or whatever. Um, the second thing to think about why I want to do this is that.

Um, full in a little bit out of love with the whole entrepreneur journey. And it might be just a bit of a blip, but I’m starting to think, and I’m having a semi midlife crisis about actually what I want to be doing my day to [00:28:00] day basis. And day-to-day. And you might’ve seen a tweet a little while ago. I am the biggest fan of podcasts.

Like I don’t think there’s many people out there who listen to more podcasts than I do. Um, I mean, I run a lot. I don’t know if you know that I run a run every day. I take the kids to school. I know I love it. On, in the background at work cooking, I’m a voracious learner or like, you know, I want to kind of get what the thing.

I also love YouTube and that whole kind of content world just fascinates me. And I find it incredibly entertaining and, um, inspir inspiring really. And I don’t know if you saw, but I did a challenge back in, in beginning of the year. I did 30 days of 30 days of videos.

And the reason for behind that was a personal brand thing. It was a challenge, but more, [00:29:00] and it was, it was a challenge to me. Like I’m I’m, as we said earlier, not an a share, I hate being on camera and I was forcing myself to do it because on this one hand, I want to be a YouTuber, a podcaster. And on this other hand is I hate being on camera and like be myself out there.

So I was like, something’s got to give somewhere. I challenged myself to do this 30 day thing. And I put a video out pretty much every day for 30 days, although I did have COVID in the middle of it. So I had to string it on at the end. But what I took away from that was actually all these insecurities and all of these imposter syndrome and all these like negative things I think about myself and why didn’t want to be on camera when I didn’t want to be on a microphone was I actually started to enjoy.

Yeah, and I, yeah, it was sometimes I [00:30:00] amazed myself. I started looking, looking forward to doing it every day. So then the upshot of that was is I, well, if I love podcasts so much, and I love YouTube so much, one a for my, not doing more about that. And I think. I do. I’ve been working on it now. So the long short is I’m launching a podcast very soon.

Oh, medicine. I have been working on it for a few weeks now. Like the concepts, the ideas, what I want to do, how I want to differentiate and stand out, which I think I can do. Um, because, you know, whenever you start a new project or a new idea, whatever, the same thing kicks in, it’s like, oh, well, what if it fails?

I mean, how many other podcasts are there out there at the moment? Like, how am I possibly going to stand out? So I’ve kind of been, trying to think about it in a, in a logical way, in a creative way. And I think I’m there and actually [00:31:00] true to me as a much as I love taking on more than I can do. I’ve actually got three podcasts.

Okay. Um, I’m not going to do them all from the beginning parts. I’ve got one. I’m going to start with, sorry. There’s three, this three different types of podcasts. So ultimately they’re gonna be three different types of podcasts. Parts I have now got wisdom. I’m not going to try and launch all three at the same time.

Although my wisdom money came to me last week. Um, last week I was going to launch all three, but I’m going to launch one and I’m basically, I’m going to commit to 10 episodes and I’ve got 10. I’ve almost got 10 guests lined up. Awesome. And for two reasons, one, I want to [00:32:00] ensure that I actually enjoy it. I also want to make sure that I can, it is as good as I think it’s going to be, or actually rolls how I think is going to be.

Um, and also I need to make sure the tech, I mean, I’m sure you’ll let it out what happened earlier, but the tech side of things is, is crazy. Like I’ve asked the funny thing. I mean, I lost you now. You’ll see the podcast you’ve been doing it for a while. I thought it’d be. Pretty straightforward, you know, like a YouTube video.

I could grab my phone, create video by my main way. Bang. I can have it up in YouTube in 30 seconds, but podcasts and seams, I don’t know why, but it seems a little bit more complicated than that. And I don’t quite get it, I suppose.

Phil: Um, yeah, I think the recording side doesn’t have to be. Yeah. When I started out, basically bought a 20 quick [00:33:00] microphone, USB microphone telling me it wasn’t USB.

I think you just went into the speaker part and their PC just went down and just used the free software. So I think that side of it isn’t, we’re getting it published. Getting it published. You are right. It is, it is an easy. Um, and it isn’t, um, straightforward. Isn’t straightforward. And as well, if you want to do it properly, like say, you’re going to have to edit every episode and you’ve got to have to start stitching things together, doing an intro to the nitro and it does get time consuming and a little bit of effort, uh, But the race platforms and software that they’ll all met, the publishing easy for you.

You just basically correct your upside in a piece of software and they’ll do the heavy lifting of publishing it for you. So, yeah, it’s not the most. It’s not the like say where YouTube you’re streamlined. Once your channel offs publish to your channel and away you go, it’s not straightforward. It’s not straightforward.

Chris: Do you enjoy.[00:34:00]

Look forward to doing, um,

Phil: so look forward to doing, you never know, like episodes like this. Yeah. Um, sometimes when it’s just me sort of riffing, it’s a weird when you kind of like, oh, can’t be asked and then when you do it and get into it, you’re glad you’ve done it. But sometimes I think what happens is the thing that disheartens me out is, like I said, the, sometimes the editor in the.

Got it. I’ve since scheduled and then the promotion, I think they say with like the same, like blog posts and things, you spend 20% of your effort creating it and 80% of your

Chris: effort sharing it, or you should do at least. Yeah.

Phil: Yeah, exactly. And I, I find that a real struggle, um, trying to work that. Right with while to get it, to impact the numbers.

Um, and I think it’s interesting, you said 10 podcasts, because I think that’s a good number because [00:35:00] supposedly the average number for people quitting the podcast is six episodes. So I think you’ve got past episodes set. You do. Yeah. And the two things that I’ve learned that I’ve kind of, that kind of I’m looking at is I’m giving myself zero expectation with an episode.

Cause I think everyone wants to know. It’s like with social media posts, you want so many likes, so many shows. You still want so many downloads and lessons, so I’ve completely, yeah. I’ve stopped any expectation with, without I’m doing personally for like what you say to go into comfort zone to get, eh, to get things gone.

Send me the studies. Exactly the same journey. I love podcasts and stuff, and I wanted to do more on YouTube and I was just scared of doing it and I just started doing it. Um, well, yeah, it’s

Chris: funny you say that it was you who told me about that book? Yeah, I was just going to ask. How are you to be fucking awesome?

That’s the one that is it. Yeah. I read it on my Kindle. Yeah. And, um, [00:36:00] I, there was another one I read called. Um, oh, it wasn’t cool. It saying like getting out of your own way, right? Yeah. Buyer’s going to bug me like, it’s a good, it’s a good book. And um, let me find it. I’ll tell you exactly who it was, but it was good.

It’s just. And it’s just like, do you know what I mean? I, I, I, oh, it’s all in your head. Get out of your way, Russ.

Phil: You go in your

Chris: head. Right? Cool. Cool. Yeah. Good. It’s a good book. And

it’s funny in that, like, I love China to paper, right? If I, if I saw you in a pub and we decided not to charge at you day long, as soon as loud will, should we put a microphone and a video camera up? It’s like, uh, you turned into a different person. Yeah. [00:37:00] And I think because you turn into a different person, then when you watch yourself back, listen, you surfing, oh my God, who is that guy?

But actually when you sort of then get over that initial. I mean, people might listen to this and watch this. I go, yeah, he’s still that guy. It’s like, when you get over that initial hump, then things start to get a bit better and a bit freer. And actually you do come across a bit like more naturally. And I mean, don’t get me wrong.

I’m far from a natural at this. And it’s a challenge for me to not think about the camera and not, you know, not scratch my face or cross my arms or all that stuff. Everyone starts somewhere. Yeah, exactly. If you had told me at the beginning of this year, you had done 30 videos in a row or whatever, sorry.

30, 30 days. Um, I thought you’re crazy. [00:38:00] I so much so that I recorded a video funny enough last year. So my birthday is the end of November and last year. I recorded a video saying I want to launch a YouTube channel. And because it was my birthday, that was the trigger to say, right. Okay. It’s my birthday.

And this is what I’m going to do. And I watched it back. I recorded it and watched it back. And I said to my wife, there is no effing way ongoing anywhere near like, hated it. And what, funny enough I watched it the other day I found out I was clearing out my phone and, um, I was, I’m not doing it. I know it was depressed for a week.

Cause I was like, oh, I really want to be YouTube and a podcast. And I was like, my dream just suddenly shattered overnight. And um, I thought, yeah, no chance. I’m not doing it. Yeah, we need a ton of

Phil: me then getting on that. So the interesting thing on that [00:39:00] is if you, like you said, go to your favorite podcasts, you’ve got lots.

Listen to. The one thing I tried came track tonight is actually go back to the first ever episode. They recorded and listened to it and listen to what they are know. And you’d be like, like what I listened to called marketing school, their intro to dog barking. And they didn’t, I don’t think they knew. And they got smart, they got slapped a hundred episodes in, cause they’re doing a daily, like a daily, daily, five minutes of marketing said.

Right. And then, and then all of a sudden, so from like say from 105. It just got a lot better. The production, the Ricard in a bit, the actual intro, and these were like experienced guys that have been doing sort of marketing and sign a produced concept for edge. And you could hear the dog barking in the intro when you were doing it.

I was just like, so yeah. So I think everyone, everyone goes through

Chris: that. It’s funny. It’s funny you say that. So we, me and my wife went to watch Steven Bartlett’s live show a little while ago and, uh, we, we [00:40:00] met him beforehand and I was chatting to him. I said, I remember listening to you when you, uh, in your coat cupboard with a duvet over your head, trying to get out the noise cancellation, uh, sorry.

Get out of the noise interference. And he’s like, yeah, man. But what’s funny is that wasn’t that long ago. And, uh, so in Zillow, after that, my wife said to me, she said the same thing. She goes, why don’t you go back and listen to some of his first ones again, because it’s all well and good, like getting into these podcasts is now who 130 odd episodes in, and they’re all polished and they’re all like high production values, but they didn’t all start off like that.

Yeah. And I think it’s really, uh, one of the big takeaways from doing that for me, is it wasn’t that long ago that, I mean, him is one example. Uh, I also listen to Jake Humphrey, uh, pipe performance podcast, uh, the creative rebels, uh, rank and chatted. Do you ever listened to him a bit of him lately? [00:41:00] Uh, but if you, if you go back, there’s some of these names who weren’t even, again, like you said, the production values weren’t great.

They weren’t bad. They weren’t great. They weren’t certainly what they are now. When you’re doing that first 10 episodes or before you’ve even done that first 10 episodes, you’re like, oh man. You know, so funnily enough, it was stories. I’m looking at all these different hosting platforms. Right. And as you will know, I’m sure you’ve looked at them.

It’s like, oh, you start looking at. I had this little tick box exercise to see which one I was going to go with based on different criteria. Um, fact, I’ve got my little list here. Um, and it was, uh, uh, one that could do multiple podcasts. I wanted one that didn’t have like a limit on download. Oh, sorry. I’ll come to that last one.

Upload volumes, um, and all these upstart. And then I got to see about downloads and I’m like, I’m [00:42:00] comparing these platforms. Some of the guys. Let me pull it up. They’re like, oh, you know, you get 15,000 downloads. I’m not, oh, well, you know, well,

Phil: after,

Chris: when she got to that. Yeah, I know. Right. So that’s it. So I’m sitting there, I’ve gone through these ones.

I’ve got in front of me here. And, um, so one of the things was download volumes. It’s like, oh, this one’s got excellent. Like, you know, this one, I was limited at 15 K and then this next one, I less limited at 20 K uh, captivate, which I really like, oh, it’s limited at 12 K. But this is on the basic package.

Right. And I’m like, get grit, man. Is if I got worry about 12,000 downloads, I

Phil: always think that, I think if you, if you hit not limit, you’re actually in a really good place and you were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Way of course

Chris: I would love to have that problem, but that was me. I was just sitting there yesterday, going through this stuff.

I was like, oh, 12,000, you know, How’s that mate, I sort [00:43:00] of like give myself a little slip and say what you do. And, um, yeah. It’s, it’s a funny thing, I think. Yeah. So you’re you that start, you said earlier about six or I think I’ve read eight or six or seven. Like it’s all brown, the same sort of things. Most people give up after seven.

So I said to myself, I’ll give myself 10. Uh, I don’t think, I mean, I won’t give up unless it’s horrendous, but I don’t think I’ll give up. I mean half the battle is getting the guests right. Is getting, is organized.

Phil: Yeah.

Chris: And I think that, but I’ve got a concept in my head, which I think works. And I just, like I said, I’m getting process of getting guests at the moment who I think would be good for it.

And I think that

10 episodes will give me a real chance to see. Hone the process ensure if it’s good and not, it’s kind of a weird one to [00:44:00] say, because you want the 10 guests to begin with. We don’t want it to feel like, oh, they’re Guinea pigs, or they’re the, um, you know, you’re testing stuff out and that’s really not the case, but it’s just, it’s something that’s really exciting.

Me and I haven’t had that for awhile. I know this is good business going, right. Your opinions going well. I don’t wake up with that sort of rollout better go. Great. I’m going to crack out a few surveys today. It’s not, um, it’s not really sort of having that effect on me at the moment. And I think combining that with, you know, whether it’s podcasts or YouTube or whatever, like that, can’t be a bad thing for your personal brand, if you can build that.

And, you know, and we kind of have that 15,000 download problem. You know, you’re always going to be associated with your business, which is I haven’t got problem with, but if it’s, if you can build the audience there and then, you know, get that kind of cross [00:45:00] contamination or whatever you want to call it.

And, um, then it’s only a good thing and yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Phil: And you tapped into market, like you say, as well, like I added some of the studies about, like you said, you do it going, running people that cook in and you’re in the study as well. You do it in such a personal way as well, because you’re actually, like I said, running, there’s just you, the rod and just your headphones.

So you are engaged with people in a different way. And I think. One of the podcasts are listened to, and they said the average earnings of the U S of someone who were listening to a podcast is like a hundred thousand dollars a year. So they say you actually are getting into this target, this market, this audience that are probably a little more financially, well, financially well off, they might be business owners.

They might be people that could benefit from using your opinion. So it’s kind of this real. But just loads and loads of benefits from the personal point of view. But also, like I said, as you as a brand and any opinion alongside that. So, so it’s a real [00:46:00] interesting platform. So yeah, I don’t blame me for going, going all in on it.

No, it’s all.

Chris: Do you know why? Like I said earlier, I mean, it is, I love the platform and it’s something that the medium, sorry. And I love it. And I’ve been a big fan. My big concern is obviously like anything it’s just cutting through the noise or. You know, you look through your app these days, they used to be a handful of podcasts and now like, you know, episodes, good law.

And it’s, it’s like anything, isn’t it. It’s it’s how do you stand out? Whether it’s with your podcast, whether it’s with your business, whether it’s with whatever that that’s the key thing. So, but yeah. Ultimately, I love chatting to people and I love learning from people. And I love asking questions and I’ve sort of always had this knack for it.

So it seems like a logical step. And actually part of me is wondering why it’s taken me so long to actually explore this, um, [00:47:00] explore it. So, yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. Maybe it’d be good to see how it goes.

Phil: So, can you give it the one you’re going to launch? Can you give a little bit of a preview of what it’s going to be a bow?

Are they still a little bit like

Chris: cards close to the so I’m still, I’m still finalizing things, but what can I tell you? So there’s a, there’s a logic behind it, right? So essentially it’s going to be 10 questions. Okay. And they’re going to be the same 10 questions for every person. So my, as much as I love podcasts, one of my big issues with podcasts is they are, a lot of them are falling into the trap of the late night chat show, right?

The Graham Norton’s and, uh, Jonathan Ross is of this world where guests come on at everywhere. Because they’re promoting their [00:48:00] latest movie or book or whatever exactly what you mean. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. And the same thing is happening in podcasts. And it’s getting to the point now and w who was, I was chatting to the other day, so I’m not trying to, I was listening to a podcast the other day and he said, oh, it’s going to bug me.

Who was it? Whoever it was. I was listening to them. And they were like, uh, I was a rock Bryden one. And he was saying, you guys, this is the question you’re going to ask me. This is the question you’re going to ask me. And it was, I don’t know if you’re a Gavin and Stacey fan, but it was about, um, what happened on the PO and is it going to be another season and all this?

And it suddenly dawned on me that these people I go into to promote whatever they’re going to promote, which is nothing wrong with that. Right. I get it. It’s part of the, of. But as a result, they get asked the same questions day after, day by everything. So if [00:49:00] you listen to other, I’m not even name names, it’s not fair, but I podcast a and they’re interviewing someone and then you listen to someone else and they’re interviewing the same person.

It’s essentially the same podcast. So my, what I’m trying to do, my differentiating factor. Is, I mean, obviously like you’ve got a new thing and you come on and he’s like, oh, you know, this is Phil, you know, he’s CEO of X, Y, Z, and he’s launching this and this and this, but I’m not, not going to talk about it, but I want to get to know you as a person and I will ask you stuff.

So the questions will be like about, you know, your past, like when you were a kid or what did you want to be when you were a kid and the reason I’m doing. Vegas. Cause I haven’t actually finalized the 10 questions. I’m just I’ve I’ve got about 20 and I’m just trying to work out what are interested in trying to create that narrative arc that goes right.

Phil was born. Phil wanted to be an astronaut filtered so it goes from like [00:50:00] when you’re born, when you’re a kid, when you’re not out to now to the future, and that’s the plan.

And by doing that now, obviously people who are savvy will attribute what they’re coming to promote maybe into one of the questions. Like there’s nothing you can do about that, but I just don’t want it to be, um, I want it to try and stand out a little bit from, from the other stuff. So that’s kind of the plan.


um, yeah, and that’s kind of the plan. Interesting space. Yeah, that’s a,

Phil: that’s a great way to sort of, um, to wrap up a podcast that we’re going to be promoting another podcast coming soon. So I’ll actually leave it there and I see we can. Now, when you’re, when you launch it, we’ll do a bit of promotion and see if we can get you back on Chapo

Chris: and promote that as well.

I’ll get you on as a guest, you can be one of my. [00:51:00]

Phil: Yeah, well, I didn’t love it as well as running a podcast. I do love going on. I was on one yesterday afternoon, so I do love getting on them. I just think I’m the same as you, I just think is a great, great medium is my favorite thing to do as well. So yeah.

So while it flopped, definitely

Chris: that’s fine. Oh, I get it. I get it arranged as soon as I go through finalize.

Phil: Really, yeah. More than happy to open and be on a big grant. So people, if people want to reach out to you and find out more about you or connect and find out more about any opinion was the best places to go and

Chris: connect with.

I I’m predominantly hundred seven focused on the opinion and opinion, Twitter and Instagram. So, yeah, let me up there.

Phil: Cool, amazing. So, yeah. Thanks. Thanks Conan, Chris. Appreciate

Chris: it. And I really enjoyed it. Look forward

Phil: to seeing your personal branding. I developed.

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